The New Look Prototype --- Ready for viewing

[COBOLdinosaur]

Sorry folks.  Its been a bad day, after a weekend trying to make IE do what is necessary to support a skinable presentation  template.

I appreciate your efforts to try and make things better.

[nicholassolutions]

<Frustration_not_anger>

That's all you've got to say -- it's obvious that you worked hard on this, and it looks much better - I think that sentiment may have gotten watered down by the suggestions, but I'm guessing everyone agrees on that

...and it occurred to me while I was writing my response that I wasn't offering much in the way of alternatives. As far as the background image, I had something like:

in mind...I just think if it's more subtle, it will be less distracting, and take less attention away from the main page.

When I have some time (which won't be for a while) I'll try playing around with my own style sheet (which should be easy because the HTML is well-written), and everyone else who knows CSS should do the same. I see no reason to limit the number of options at all in the long run - in fact, it wouldn't be hard for every member to have his own style sheet, which could be approved by an admin (just to confirm that it has no malicious code embedded), and offered to other members from the submitting member's profile page. So, what I really meant by my last comment was that if the 'abstract' layout is improved (which it is) and if the HTML is good (which it is) we should go with this, and leave the 'concrete' details for later.  :^)

[rdivilbiss]

I hate to say this but I feel the design is going in the wrong direction. A clean, light modern look is IMO, better than "wood". Wood images make it look like a beginner's homepage (sorry but that's how I feel.

My opinion does not deny the excellent progress made in the site in general.

itou / ditto

abut the CSS : tidy chokes on :
   #firstP {
            font:weight:bold;
should be font-weight: bold;

also, you should put the scrollbar-* IE-proprietary attributes in the "IE hacks" CSS you mentioned, because Tidy/FFox also complains about those.

regards

Another belated ditto... layout is okay, but design looks noob!

[rdivilbiss]

And likewise, (nod to NicholasSolutions) I am posting a first impression without making ant suggestions which is not helpful I realize.

Sorry to be negative without additional input at this point.

[coral1]

Very strange, I just checked with IE5.5, (800x600) and it put 2.5 tabs in the botton row. Seems it broke TECH NEWS in two.   :-s

Other than that, it looks good to me. It's uncluttered, and things are sectioned off and easy to find/use.   :coffee2:

[COBOLdinosaur]

There is a job opening on this site for Site Administrator.  I'm not going to do it any more.  I will pay to keep the site running as long as you want it, but I am going to just write a blog  somewhere I don't have to try and please anyone but myself.

Right now I am spending time trying to guess what people want because they won't tell me except to reject every presentation idea I have done since we started. I am trying to figure out what the hell I am supposed to do about the security issues for RSS because what the  PHP experts are proposing is going over my head, and another one is demonstrating the problem while spoofing the IP of my proxy without telling me he is testing, and setting off all kinds of security alerts.

I have a list of "I would like to see" requests long enough to keep me busy for a year. The only list that is longer is the list of "I don't really like that";  "can we change this"; and "when are YOU going to".  

This site is not my job.  It is not operated for profit, and I'm a not looking for it to produce revenue.

Yesterday:

We had more hits from Google than any two prior days combined.  We hit a new high for page loads with 964, and had over 300 new unique visitors in one day.  I'm trying to leverage that and use it to build up membership by putting quality content at improved entry points.  Instead of helping with suggestions about the content, you have an issue with the background and don't like the theming. So find someone to run the site; who will do a better job.

Today:

They can start off by coming up with a design that meets with your approval, and then deploy it across the site. They can move on to fix the security problems with the RSS feeds and complete the custom version of the of feed interface.  Then they can figure out the key word hrases and bidding levels for the adsense campaign.  Next they can insure that members won't be spammed when the ERT mailboxes are made available to them.  Next they can get the procedures in place to manage the sub domains for Mentors.  Along the way they can check the logs to see if they need to block the IPs of hackers trying to attack the site, welcome new members, try to find answers for questions Mentors have not yet responded too, and analyse the stats to try and determine what needs to be done to hold more users and get them to register.  To make content development from forum topics a reality you will need to come up with editing tools, train people how to use them, and probably still end up doing most of the editing yourself unless you can steal and editor from another site.

Of course they will also be expected to respond to complaints, suggestions, and requests for featues that come in by email, PM, and in topic comments.  Oh and I almost forgot they will need to edit submitted content so that there is a steady flow of new stuff going on the site; in their spare time they can surf the 'net to come up with sources for free content, feeds, and other resources.  One additional thing.  There is a small group of folks trying to contribute and get things done; don't screw that up.  They are the reason I will keep paying the bills while you figure out how to keep everyone happy, and still grow the site.

Oh, BTW, the job does not pay anything; this is an all volunteer site; and only a handful of people actually help.

Anyone interested in running the site can PM me.

And yes that was angry. I am starting to understand why most forums have arrogant admins who make arbitrary decisions without asking for input.

Cd&

[nicholassolutions]

sweet bastard, Roy, for someone who's developed a repuation for 'telling it like it is' you don't seem to be handling criticism  very well lately. A wiser man than I once said, "If you don't want to know the answer, don't ask the freaking question."

You got feedback regarding the presentation because the wood panelling/station wagon trim reminded people of 'first-try' geocities pages built with online authoring tools...before they read a single word. You may think it's unimportant, but it's not. You're noticing people coming through and leaving? If the site's front page looks noobish, they're not even going to hang around. You're right that it shouldn't look like you need a suit and tie to be around here, but people aren't going to beleive this place is run by professionals unless it looks like it. That goes both for people who will be offering help and those who are looking for it -- I know enough of both to be sure of that, and the responses here prove it as well. Your tutorial pages and my pages don't look like they were done for a law firm's website, but they also don't look n00b. I really don't know what you expected from people -- you asked for first impressions and you got them. You said you weren't angy, but you were.

Conclusion... Our visitors want a comfortable site with a more casual look, not a site where they have to wear a suit and tie.

That's a rather bold conclusion to make given the data. phpBB also spells n00b.Everybody and his brother has phpBB on his site, and ERT only has ~ 100 members. For all we know, people are actually looking for a MORE professional feel, or at least a forum that didn't come out of a crackerjacks box.


All of the above aside, no one here has (a) said that you are  not doing a good job or (b) that you aren't working hard enough. No one is making you do this, and you have been oferred at least one design (from Esopo) that is probably acceptable to everyone except you. It could have at least been worked from. So you don't get to take the attitude that  the rest of the members of the site are slave drivers.

If I wanted to, I could bitch that there is only one other member of the PHP team who frequently helps with site maintenance issues, that I have single-handedly coded two applications (one exactly to a set of specs that you unilaterally decided upon) that have yet to be rolled-out through no fault of my own, and partially as a result of the lack of help I've received and the lack of feedback I've been given. I could complain about the hours I've spent writing articles specially for ERT while most other members have contributed nothing. But I'm not going to, because no one made me put in the time, and for the most part, I didn't specifically ask for help (when I did, I usually got at least  some, by the way). If ERT is taking up too much time and effort with a lack of results, take a few days off. That's what I've been doing and it works well. Better yet, hand off some of the responsibilities you mentioned to other people. They may not be volunteering, but then, even I didn't know about all of those tasks, so others certainly didn't either. Post a list of 'job openings' somewhere, and mass mail the mentors asking for help. My guess is that at least a few people will offer their time and abilities.

More importantly, no one told you not to put up the new page. The site's a work in progress. You do a little at a time, and you move forward. It's been the policy for a while here that if you take the initiative to do something, you have the freedom to do it. That applies to you also. You came up with an improved layout. Put it up. If people don't like it, they can offer improvements. Speaking of which, I think mine is better:
http://layouts.expertsrt.com/prototypes/prototype_matt.html
(and just for the record, yes, once again I've put in time to ERT that I didn't really have to give...but I'm not complaining about it).

I am trying to figure out what the hell I am supposed to do about the security issues for RSS because what the PHP experts are proposing is going over my head, and another one is demonstrating the problem while spoofing the IP of my proxy without telling me he is testing, and setting off all kinds of security alerts.

I assume that was Nick. He should have made you aware first, and that would piss me off also. But at least he found the holes before someone else did. If the suggestions PHP experts  are giving you don't make sense, ask. No one is above explaining things to anyone else around here.


By the way, maybe we're guilty of not saying thank you enough either:

THANK YOU ROY



So, I hope you're not really quiting the site to go off and write a blog...because I think you're doing a damn good job with it. If you take some constructive criticism from time to time, you'll do it even better.

[Roönaän]

Hi All,

I didn't feel like criticising anyone, but just started some sketching of my own. What about this one:

http://www.foreverland.nl/ert/sketch20060405.jpg

It isn't fully balanced I think, could have some additinal work, but I like the way the different parts line up and the gradients around the top menu.

Or is this still to "formal" and office-like?

Time I went to sleep. It's about 1:25AM :{

[nicholassolutions]

Hi Roönaän,

Nice to see you around  :wink:
I like that layout quite a bit, and it's a nice approach to have some article text show up in addition to the title. It's clean, but the gradients up top especially make it look 'cool' enough that it doesn't seem too formal. It also looks like it would scale nicely. It might also be nice to add in some of the other features from Roy's original layout (specifically the lookup, and invitation for Mentors to join). If it does look too "familiar" like many business sites, I think to the extent it does, it's a good thing because people will feel immediately comfortable with it. It might be improved upon, but I think it's a very nice start. Nice work :-)

[COBOLdinosaur]

I started this site, because no one else would start one like it without selling ads, making a profit, and perhaps charging for "Premium" services.  

I have never had any real desire to run a web site, but the only way this place was going to exist was if I took it on. Right now ERT is what I wanted it to be; a place where me and others can have our work published and get good exposure without commercial interests, and where talented people can spend time in a forum geared to helping and teaching.

ERT works as a Mentors haven, and I would like it to grow.  It is gaining ground every day, but I don't seem to be giving members what they want, and in the end this is a Community site where the members need to have a major role in determining how the site works.

What has been said in this thread stings a little. What has not been said hurts me. I put in over a week's effort trying to find a design that addresses the complaints, suggestions, and ideas that have been tossed around. I dug up free content that did not require ads.  I spent a day mucking around with graphics.  I went through topics and PMs and emails trying to find out what you wanted; and at the same time produce a look and feel that would get new visitors  to stay and join the community.  The responses I got could have been helpful and positive; they were not. The responses I got could have offered some concrete help; they didn't. The responses I got could have put personal taste aside; but what I got was more request to do things to individual personal taste.  If the opinion is that the  design is crap that does not insult me.  I am not a designer, and I have never claimed to be.  What I put up was a skinable layout.

I can solve the technical problems on a page and build workable layouts, but I can't do design.  I know how to fix the broken tab problem with tech news so I will.  I can write the code for that layout so it does not need multiple stylesheets, but gets done dynamically; but I can't do design no matter how much time I put into it.  I can optimize for realtime RSS with AJAX; even bring in dynamic content for IE without activeX; but I can't do design.  It took 45 minutes for me to write tha layout and and hour to put in most of the text.I spent the rest of the week trying to do design;  trying to make it look right; trying to find graphics; tryng to create graphics; trying to figure out what it should look like.  If you think layout is bad you should have seen some of the earlier efforts.

Matt you have a better design so that is what I'm going to deploy.  I guess that is what I wanted to do but didn't know how.  If design is a critical issue, then this site need to be run by someone who can do design. No matter what the site will still be here and anyone who wants access to anything on the site will have it free.  The site may not grow but it will be here anytime someone needs a tut or script or a place to ask a question.  It will still be here anytime a Mentor has something they want to publish or a place to teach.  It will be here the next time there is a wave of disatisfaction on another site and Mentors need a place to go.

No has applied for the Site Admin job yet.  If someone does then they get the keys to the kingdom and all the problems that comes with them. Until then I am stuck doing a bunch of stuff I like, a few thing that I am figuring out and the expectation of getting beat up everytime I try my hand at design. I am starting deployment as of now we went over a thousand page loads for a single day for the first time today, and our daily average hits from Googel are doubdouble what they were a week ago.  As other ideas come in like Roönaän's and some of Esopo's stuff that I have ignored we will incorporate the best, but I'm obviously not the best judge of what to use, so someone is going have to tell what works and what is crap, and what falls somewhere in between. The only requirement is that nothing goes in that is not dynamically skinable. Time for visitors to start seeing a new look.

Roy

[CrYpTiC_MauleR]

Looking at the members list I see I am the most active user when its comes to asking questions in the forums. One thing being an asker I find a problem is the lack of Mentors on the site.

When I ask a question it can be answered, responded to, or ignored.

On TOS 2% of my questions were never responded to.
On ERT 21% of my questions were never responded to.

I know ERT is still young and not many members, but more than a visual presentation, this site needs more help to answer questions. We can have the most amazing presentation but if we as a community can't help a visitor with a question in a timely manner, well they will just go look somewhere else.

The main reason I still ask question on ERT is that its free, I know the large pool of knowledge the members here already possess and well by asking questions I help the community grow by adding content  and such, But most of my questions unfortunately are empty and forgotten about which doesn't do much help, not to ERT and definitely not me, because I have to in the end attempt to answer the question myself.

So we really need to find a way to get more Mentors here, at least one per forum, I know it will be hard but its a key feature of the site.




Regards,
Nick

[nicholassolutions]

The responses I got could have offered some concrete help; they didn't.

Fair enough -- for my part I apologize for not offering help sooner. The reason I didnt is because, frankly, I didn't want to stir up trouble in the "Roy thinks design doesn't matter" debate. But I guess mentioning shortcomings without suggested solutions is worse, so I'm sorry.

For what it's worth, my design (which is by far not the best thing I've ever done either) came about mainly by screwing around in photoshop, shortening a couple headers and toying with the style sheet -- I barely touched the HTML at all. IMO, that's the tough part and the part that counts -- especially when it's been written so that the look can be changed that easily. So, you did a good job, better than anyone else probably would have done, and it's a solid foundation for additional improvement. Dropping elements from Roönaän's design and Esopo's into what you have will be easy, because the foundation is solid. The lack of critical comments regarding the layout is a complement in itself.

No has applied for the Site Admin job yet. If someone does then they get the keys to the kingdom and all the problems that comes with them. Until then I am stuck doing a bunch of stuff I like, a few thing that I am figuring out and the expectation of getting beat up everytime I try my hand at design. I am starting deployment as of now we went over a thousand page loads for a single day for the first time today, and our daily average hits from Googel are doubdouble what they were a week ago. As other ideas come in like Roönaän's and some of Esopo's stuff that I have ignored we will incorporate the best, but I'm obviously not the best judge of what to use, so someone is going have to tell what works and what is crap, and what falls somewhere in between. The only requirement is that nothing goes in that is not dynamically skinable. Time for visitors to start seeing a new look.

Nor should they apply, IMNSHO. First of all, no one else has shown the same level of commitment (including me), and there's no reason to expect they will. Second, few here have the same level of client side presentation skills that you do, or the same level of insistence that the design and layout be stable and accessible (many don't even know what it means). You need some help with design. I'm not that good at it either. I usually ask my girlfriend for help, and throw away TONS of bad ideas.

You should ask for help too. I'm pretty sure you'll get it. If the design will lead to a broken site, reject it. If it doesn't, use it. Voice your own opinions about what you like and don't like. Ask other people -- it's hard to make a good design, but it's easier to spot one, even if you don't know what you're doing (like you and me). In the end, you'll have increased participation and an improved final product, with less effort on your part.  It can happen in steps. It doesn't have to take place overnight. The best part is, your design skills will probably improve greatly. You're in a unique position to create solid foundations and to act as a gatekeeper for keeping the "kiddie tricks" out. The site will suffer if you give that position up.

-------------
Nick, I agree we need more people. The majority of those are going to be less knowledgeable people looking for help. As those numbers grow, more experts will come and be Mentors, and eventually it will be self-sustaining. We just need to prime the pump by getting noticed on Google etc, and Roy's been doing a good job with that. I think it's just going to take some time. In your particular case, a lot of the questions you've asked are pretty high level (if they were simple you'd have figured them out yourself). So, it's hit or miss for now. Frankly, I'm not sure you'd get much better help at TOS with many of them -- I've closed many complicated questions there without ever really getting a definitive answer (It might be interesting to try asking and see what kind of responses you get in comparision to here). I think you'll start to notice improvement soon, because hopefully as new Mentors come in, they will not be as consumed with actually running and building the site, and they can spend all their time here helping. If something's urgent and you're not getting the help you need, I don't think anyone here will fault you for asking elsewhere (you can always send me your question typed-up and I will post it on EE for you -- I can even write the subject so that my server will bounce the notifs to you ;-).

[COBOLdinosaur]

Nick,

You are right that we need more Mentors.  Every day the tracking shows users hitting the site off of Google into an article, tut, ot one of the topics they must like what they see because they don't leave right away. Sometimes they look at a couple more pages and then click the forum link. sometime they go right to the forum.  That says they might be interested in asking a question; but then they leave.

Possible reasons:

• They don't like the look of the forum?
• They don't want to register first?
• They don't see anyone here and think it is dead?

We are starting to do something about the first one.
The second one could be fixed by letting guests post but then how do they get notifs? how do we build up membership?
For the final one we need to do some recruiting and we will have to think about effective ways to do that.  Many times when I come to the forum it looks like there are no Mentors here to users because Mentor shave not logged in and show as a guest, or some hae their options set to be hidden and only the admins can see them.

If the forum shows empty it is not going to encourage guests to sign up.  They think there is no one here.  So we have to get more Mentors and Mentors need to be listed as on the site at the bottom of the index page when we get visitors.

I didn't want to stir up trouble in the "Roy thinks design doesn't matter" debate.

It does matter but not ahead of sound structure.  A web page is no different than a program, it has to have solid best practice based structure, and if you weaken the structure, you move it towards early failure.

And you don't ever owe me an appology for trying to work for the benefit of the site, or saying something I don't like.

The fact that you could re-do the design without modifying the layout makes my point.  Even more important is tha twith that kind of layout you can manipulate the components without breaking the structure just like you can re-arrange the room funiture.  It it just a series of components laid out with a wire frame.  I doing a tut on it now directly out of the ERT topic where I showed Gecko how to do it. That layout will support all the kinds of pages we have to do including the forum, and has a million design possibilities.  The problem is I can never figure out which on of the million options to use.  :scratch:

[COBOLdinosaur]

It will be going up as the new home page in 15 or 20 minutes, with a couple of changes.  I took out fon family on the body.  Some people like san serif and some don't better let the fon defaut because that will normally means the user will get the font the have selected for default.  I did put it back on the heading though.

I commented out the RSS feeds in and out, For a day or two to make sure they work cleanly on the page.  

I added a link for featured article (Your HTTP header one), I move weather up and dictionary down.  The weather on puts outr name on their page so I'd rather have them give them the above the fold position.

[COBOLdinosaur]

done. Looks good.  :cheers:

Thanks Matt.

The RSS feed will get plugged in in a day or two.  The will use AJAX to plug in the saved feed and the effect is going ot be slick.