Watch Topic Area Suggestion...

[nicholassolutions]

For those of you who are interested in receiving a news letter with current site news, including news polls and other discussions you should be aware of, I am going to set up a mailing list. In order to do this, however, I need help from volunteers who are willing to *write* the news letters, which will involve going through active threads, summarizing discussions, and categorizing links. The idea is to give a nice weekly summary of what has been going on around ERT. For each news letter you write, you will be credited in the letter itself, and you will enjoy the gratitude of those who receive it.

So, if people are really serious about this, PLEASE PM ME if you are (a) interested in volunteering to write the letters and/or (b) interested in receiving them.

[Esopo]

Matt,

On the newsletter:
No toe-stepping mate, we are on the same train here. Hook up the newsletter to the best of what we have right now (with hopefully very little effort) and we'll see where it goes.
I volunteer to do the weekly newsletter until someone else can/wants to take over. Actually, I would very much like to be in charge of the first few editions of said newsletter to set a precedent, I feel I have a clear idea of how to go about it.


Cd&,
You need a glass of something and to loosen up your tie knot a little bit. You and I have butt heads in several ocassions but, as I've said before, what really matters is that at the end of the day we share the same general goals - which is true of everybody in this thread. As long as we have that I may not agree with your every decision, but someone has to make decisions and I'm cool with you making some that I don't agree with. On that note, I don't have an issue with your list of priorities but I feel that the newsletter is not only an important improvement but the lack of it is causing me stress-related sterility, so please forgive if a group of us decide to pay extra inmediate attention to it. We are also working on other things too, it is not as if we have halted operations to do the newsletter. I'm about to spend a good chunk of my free time working on that skin contest.

And, for fks sake, you are doing a great job. I would be the first one in line to say you are not, and believe me I could write a thick list of the things I think you are not getting right, except that I think your overall performance is what counts and I can trust in most of your decisions. Anyone that asks me will only get a "Roy is doing one hell of a job" answer.

[VGR]

[MODE JOKE ON]
S'il te reste du cirage, tu pourras faire mes pompes.
(Coluche ;-)
[MODE JOKE OFF]
You're right. The problem of Cd& is that he is feeling "tied" to the site and is finding himself a bit alone in working hard on it on the code side.
It's either us not being enough proactive or competent, or him not liking to delegate ;-)

I know there is a list of "todo & wished for" items somewhere on which Cd& and others are working. If you really have "a thick list of things not done right", I suppose it's more on the "how to do it" side than on the the "what has to be done" one. I suggest people continue to discuss options for the implementation of some items, once the items list priorities are agreed upon. I hope this will enable you to "slim" a bit your "thick list" ;-)

[Huntress]

As for the Newsletter...count me in.  You all know how to reach me and I'll do whatever you need done.

[COBOLdinosaur]

This forum will be closed as of April 30. If spamming is acceptable then it will be done elsewhere.  If all the site is about is serving the needs of a small group in a forum you can do the same thing with a Yahoo chat group.

The rest of the site, will remain until the hosting runs out in September. If there is an interest in keeping it going as a resource then it will remain; or if someone wants to take it over in September I will transfer the domain registration.  If there is no interest, the experment will end.

I'm going to start over with a new site; sans forum, and maybe on the next try, I will get it right.  

Please download anything you need from the forum by Monday as access will not be available once the forum is closed.

For those with content on the site or in the pipeline,  let me know if you want to continue having it on the site; or if you want it removed.

Roy

[nicholassolutions]

Congratulations Roy, you finally did it: you abused your absolute power, and I'm sick as hell of talking you out of doing it. Let me tell you what I did last night, instead of other vastly more important work:

1) I downloaded, troubleshooted, and customized a mailing list program for ERT on my own web server, first because it seemed asking you for the resouces to do it here would have irritated you off (too bad I worried about that), and second because I am willing to share my own resources (as well as time) with ERT.

2) I email Esopo detailed instructions on using it, and gave him the password so he could get to work customizing it further.

3) I made a list of everyone who had PMed me to express interest in being on the kist of helping with it.

4) I added Rod to the PHP team so he could help with coding, and wrote him a detailed email on how things are currently set up and where he can get the resources he needs.

Why did I do those things? Because ERT is falling apart, and I want to do something about it. And now, because your pride has been injured a little (when everyone told you this was NOT personal), you've decided to take the work I did last night, and the work like it that I and so many others on this site have been doing for months, and throw it in the trash, so YOU can start over with YOUR project. What a crock of shit.

This forum will be closed as of April 30. If spamming is acceptable then it will be done elsewhere. If all the site is about is serving the needs of a small group in a forum you can do the same thing with a Yahoo chat group.

Another specious argument. This is not an argument about spam, and you know it. It's not an argument about whether we want the forum to grow, and you know that too. It's an argument about making the site usable and comfortable for current members, so that when new ones sign up, they'll end up sticking around.

.

I've had it with this. What has been done here? Nothing's changed. All that happened was that a discussion took place, in which you were a participant, and some people disagreed with you. A few of those people decided to improve the site, asking absolutely nothing from you to get it done. And that's cause for you to shut down the forum before the damn hosting even runs out??? If you go through with this, you'll be responsible for wasting more of my time than any other human being on Earth. I have never been suckered so badly in my life.

And as for continuing to put my money where my mouth is, I'm willing to assume the cost of hosting this site at another provider myself, starting today. I don't want to do that, but people have put too much freaking effort into this for it to be stolen away from them because you're unwilling to participate in discussions.

[COBOLdinosaur]

Another specious argument. This is not an argument about spam, and you know it.

In a way you are right. It is more a trigger. The incident itself made me a little angry.  The fact that it seems to be acceptable to those who commented made me look again at the real problem. Shifting the focus back to the same old EE QandA is the center of the universe philosophy; at the expense of solving broader problems is what this is really about.

It's an argument about making the site usable and comfortable for current members, so that when new ones sign up, they'll end up sticking around.

No.  It's about a discussion on a change in the forum resulting in an immediate move to make changes, without the change ever being submitted to a vote; based on a few members agreeing that it was a good change.  It is about everything being centered on the forum instead of the site. To get help with the layout it takes a contest to get help with layouts and themes, and then the submission deadline has to be extended because there are no entries submitted; but changes in the forum draw immediate response and resources.  That is in spite of the fact that the layout stuff can be done with no special access or support required, but email changes require server side privilege.

There is no argument about making the site usable and comfortable.  It has always been a high priority to support Mentors efforts and give them a good place to work in.  However the forum is here to support and supplement the content, and provide a place where Mentors can teach users and develop additional content by understanding what current user needs are through the teaching.  That can't happen in an EE style Q and A, where the priorites are on lots of notifs, and pushing out nags to come to the site. Maybe we should see if Ameba can do a Quick Post for us because it looks like what is wanted in a forum is an EE clone focused on instant answers.

Because ERT is falling apart, and I want to do something about it.

It is not falling apart it is pulling apart because there are two sides of the site and the objectives are out of
synch.  What we have done on the content side is drawing traffic, has given good SERP positions, and is now sending all kinds of traffic to the forum.  What user attacted to the content find in the forum is just another Q and A from what they can see.  It is disconnected and isolated from the part of the site that attracted them.  Making it even more of a Q and A and moving further away from the content is not going to change the lack of participation in the forum.  I might attract a few more Mentors looking for a Q and A, but it is not going to get users opening topics.

The users don't want another Q and A. We told the Mentors who originally came here it was not going to be a Q and A like EE. We have kept saying we don't want a Q and A.  However any request that makes it more like a Q and A gets an immediate response and willing hands to make it so; while requests and attempts to integrated it with the content side go wanting or is left to you and to do.  So it is not falling apart it is simple reflecting the result of two opposed philosophies in conflict.

It's not an argument about whether we want the forum to grow, and you know that too.

True, but it is an argument about HOW we want it to grow. A bastard child of EE will grow up to consume the content side and we will end up with nothing more than a hangout like Carobit that eventually everyone will lose interest in. I know how to build traffic to make a site viable.  I learned a lot of it working with Ken when I was on EAB at EE, and I have found what I learned works when building from scratch as we have done here. I don't know how to get the forum in synch with the rest of the site, and I am not willing to lose what has been built on the content side without trying to make it work without a forum.

I don't want to do that, but people have put too much freaking effort into this for it to be stolen away from them because you're unwilling to participate in discussions.

Matt, you have contributed more and done more than anyone else on the site.  I owe you a debt I cannot re-pay.  If you want to take the forum and try to do something with it, I'll help any way I can, but the way it is now; the two parts do not work together or compliment each other.  I am not unwlling to have discussion, but everytime I try to get the forum aimed in the right direction the discussion gets sidetracked into yet another patch to make it more like EE and that direction is not compatible with what I set out to do.  If that is what the members want and you can give it to them, that is great and I will help. The current ERT site needs a teaching forum, not a Q and A. I may be able to make it work some other way... perhaps there is another way to do the collaborate.

BTW, when issues have been posted in P&C, and go through the democratic voting process, I have express my opinion; and when the vote goes differently than I had hoped it still get implemented based on how the Community voted.  When legitimate bugs and usability problems habe been posted we have both responded quickly to try and solve them.  So if my exercise of absolute power is offensive, perhaps consider it is in response to unilateral use of privilege without reference to democractic processes; which might also be consider offensive.

Sorry.  I guess you should have let me close it down months ago.

[Esopo]

Are you smoking something new these days?

Who the hell is talking about Q&A? I'm enjoying myself so much with the new "teaching" model that I can hardly get 3ks @ TOS anymore even without competition. The forum here is working, exactly like planned.

The content side is working too, you said it yourself, some of the main entry pages are the OUTSTANDING articles we are offering the world these days courtesy of our devoted members.

The forum and the content are not connecting? True, and I think that has been in the plans since day 1. But that doesn't mean they won't connect. This thing is evolving slowly, but it is evolving. We barely have enough stuff to start automating connections. Like the polls. Don't think I've forgotten. I'm waiting for the traffic to be just right to start that poll project with discussed a few months ago.

This thing is moving, thanks to everybody and to some more than others, but we are all here.

I'm just going to pretend I didn't read your last couple of posts. You wanted democracy? What the hell could be better than the members getting together, agreeing on something and making it work? That is what happened here. We tried to do the same thing @ TOS except the admin wouldn't let us. If there is anybody turning this site into TOS it is the admin.

[nicholassolutions]

Note: Many of the quotes below are taken out of order and lumped together by theme. Some may be quoted twice.

First, some concrete examples of why I say you have done a good job:

There is no argument about making the site usable and comfortable. It has always been a high priority to support Mentors efforts and give them a good place to work in. However the forum is here to support and supplement the content, and provide a place where Mentors can teach users and develop additional content by understanding what current user needs are through the teaching.
.......
I know how to build traffic to make a site viable. I learned a lot of it working with Ken when I was on EAB at EE, and I have found what I learned works when building from scratch as we have done here.
.....
What we have done on the content side is drawing traffic, has given good SERP positions, and is now sending all kinds of traffic to the forum.
.....
BTW, when issues have been posted in P&C, and go through the democratic voting process, I have express my opinion; and when the vote goes differently than I had hoped it still get implemented based on how the Community voted. When legitimate bugs and usability problems habe been posted we have both responded quickly to try and solve them.

I'm not quite sure how you have managed to generate so much traffic to the site, but from someone who doesn't have a clue, you get a tremendous  :notworthy:

--------------
Second:

Shifting the focus back to the same old EE QandA is the center of the universe philosophy; at the expense of solving broader problems is what this is really about.
......
That can't happen in an EE style Q and A, where the priorites are on lots of notifs, and pushing out nags to come to the site. Maybe we should see if Ameba can do a Quick Post for us because it looks like what is wanted in a forum is an EE clone focused on instant answers.
.......
Making it even more of a Q and A and moving further away from the content is not going to change the lack of participation in the forum. I might attract a few more Mentors looking for a Q and A, but it is not going to get users opening topics.

The users don't want another Q and A. We told the Mentors who originally came here it was not going to be a Q and A like EE. We have kept saying we don't want a Q and A. However any request that makes it more like a Q and A gets an immediate response and willing hands to make it so; while requests and attempts to integrated it with the content side go wanting or is left to you and to do. So it is not falling apart it is simple reflecting the result of two opposed philosophies in conflict.
............
True, but it is an argument about HOW we want it to grow. A bastard child of EE will grow up to consume the content side and we will end up with nothing more than a hangout like Carobit that eventually everyone will lose interest in.
.........
I am not unwlling to have discussion, but everytime I try to get the forum aimed in the right direction the discussion gets sidetracked into yet another patch to make it more like EE and that direction is not compatible with what I set out to do.

I agree, and I disagree. I agree with what you say, but that is not what people are asking for. They are asking to be informed/reminded of discussions that they want to take part in, not their duty to come back and war for points....which leads to:

-------------------------

It is not falling apart it is pulling apart because there are two sides of the site and the objectives are out of
synch.

 What user attacted to the content find in the forum is just another Q and A from what they can see. It is disconnected and isolated from the part of the site that attracted them.

If that is what the members want and you can give it to them, that is great and I will help. The current ERT site needs a teaching forum, not a Q and A.

That is what people want, and that is what we have. So, it is not tearing apart. But people ARE drifting away. For example, among others, where is keneso? I have not seen him in months, and yet he was one of the most active members here in the beginning.

This is NOT a Q&A. There is some really great content here that I have been meaning to clean up a little and make into articles. Some examples: (1) A thread a while back on making firefox new window/tab functionality have history (like IE). I've shown several people how to do what I learned in that thread, and they loved it. (2) The recent discussion regarding the href="#" question in onclick links. At TOS, that discussion would have ended after your first post, and I would have given you 500 poinks. The way they run things now, other users might not have been able to comment even if they did just have the urge to add to the knowledge base. Here, it got fully discussed with a number of working solutions and explations, and i learned something. (3) A while back, my discussion with coral regarding my system upgrade. (4) Coral's monthly updates / reviews -- there is some AWESOME stuff in there. Try finding that on a poink-based Q&A. These are just a few examples; there are others. The forum can improve, it can move further away from the Q&A format, and I think EVERYONE here wants that. They just want to know that it's happening.

The forum WORKS. It can be better in a number of ways. The thing to do is improve it, not destroy it.

---------------------

In a way you are right. It is more a trigger. The incident itself made me a little angry. The fact that it seems to be acceptable to those who commented made me look again at the real problem.
........
No. It's about a discussion on a change in the forum resulting in an immediate move to make changes, without the change ever being submitted to a vote; based on a few members agreeing that it was a good change.
.........
So if my exercise of absolute power is offensive, perhaps consider it is in response to unilateral use of privilege without reference to democractic processes; which might also be consider offensive.

This stuff I can understand, but it should be dealt with separately, and the entire community should not have to suffer because of it. You have valid points, but they are not justifications for closing down the only way the community has to interact.

And regarding the second item, I see no reason why there should be a vote on whether or not to implement opt-in functionality. The users vote when they subscribe and unsubscribe, and they can change their minds as many times as they want, based on anything from what works best to which way the planets are presently aligned.

----------------------

To get help with the layout it takes a contest to get help with layouts and themes, and then the submission deadline has to be extended because there are no entries submitted; but changes in the forum draw immediate response and resources. That is in spite of the fact that the layout stuff can be done with no special access or support required, but email changes require server side privilege.
............
What user attacted to the content find in the forum is just another Q and A from what they can see. It is disconnected and isolated from the part of the site that attracted them.

I'll say it again: it looks dead. I have not subscribed to forums that actually had nice content before, because there didn't seem to be anyone around. People want things quickly. There are those who like the Q&A because they can get quick fixes and have you do their work for them. There are those who like to learn, and will take the time to do it right. But either way, both groups of people need OTHER people around to  talk to. It's no use to have a great teacher if you cant count on him ever being around.

I have only anectdotal proof for this (but I have a lot of it), but I would guess that you didn't need a contest to skin the homepage -- you needed that [joke]big, ugly yellow[/joke] button to let people know you wanted help, and that there was a possibility to contribute. If we had a newsletter people had asked to receive, chances are participation would have been higher, not because people were getting harassed into doing it, but because they'd been made aware of it in the first place. Especially after the two arguments surrounding both previous attempts to implement a site layout/design, I think the level of participation in the contest was great.
------------------

 I don't know how to get the forum in synch with the rest of the site, and I am not willing to lose what has been built on the content side without trying to make it work without a forum.

so the two are not perfectly connected. All that means is that we have work left to do. Why kill the forum just because we're not getting registrations? Everyone has the same goals.

-----------

Matt, you have contributed more and done more than anyone else on the site. I owe you a debt I cannot re-pay. If you want to take the forum and try to do something with it, I'll help any way I can, but the way it is now; the two parts do not work together or compliment each other.  I may be able to make it work some other way... perhaps there is another way to do the collaborate.
............
Sorry. I guess you should have let me close it down months ago.

I *do* want to try to imrpove the forum. I *do* want to see what others, such as Rod and Esopo, can offer the community in the way of creative solutions. I asked for volunteers for the news lettter, and I got responses offering help from Saju (who I've not talked to much lately -- it's great to see him around), Sandi, Esopo, and Rod almost immediately. Nick asked to be included, and VGR took the time to make suggestions. We have a good community here. It would be a shame to loose it or have to uproot it.

I don't think you should have shut it down before, and I don't think you should now, either. You don't owe *me* anything, except to not tear down the work I have done, and to not prevent me or others who still want to contribute from doing so. After I read your last post, I backed up the whole site. I am unwilling to lose the time and effort I have put into this so far just because the job is only half done. I am unwilling to snatch away a resource that at least some people have come to rely on and appreciate, and I'm willing to shell out the $100 that I would have wasted on other stuff to see that happen. But like I said, that's not the way I want it to happen. I'd rather do it with you than without you.

[nicholassolutions]

Now, I'm taking a little break, and maybe some other people should, too. I've got a lot of other things I've been putting off, and I think I'll do better work when I return after some time off anyways. I'm asking a favor that I've asked at least a couple times before: please don't kill the site, because I think there is tremendous room for progress to be made. I sincerely hope that when I return, the forum will still be here, and that the people I have set up with resources to help improve it will have a purpose for continuing to do so. In the event that the forum will be around when I get back, let me say Thank You in advance  :^)

[rdivilbiss]

It's about a discussion on a change in the forum resulting in an immediate move to make changes, without the change ever being submitted to a vote; based on a few members agreeing that it was a good change.

That is a BS statement.

Suggestions were made. Comments were made my members of the community  and you responded in a defensive and negative manner.

You said:

but right now I set the priorities and I don't see email as important enough to put ahead of other things.

I responded with OK topic closed and I'm moving on and stayed out of this topic. (Other than reading it)

BUT

you also said...

I am not opposed to a newsletter; if someone wants to program it.

and you said...

If someone wants to just do some programming to make changes that is fine. We have done some of that. As long as the PHP team is willing to support the effort and tells me that there are no security issues; I have no problem with AD HOC development. However my efforts to improve the site are based on what I think I need to be doing for best resource utilization and long term stability.

So somebody took you up on your word and went off to create a newsletter.

Somebody took you up on your word and prepared to look into the feasibility of some AD HOC development to see if any of the suggestions *COULD* be implemented.

So rather than put any of the suggestions to a vote, or even saying lets table this until we have the GC inplace, you made the unilateral decision that none of the suggestions would be implementd while at the same time saying perople had your blessing to do it on their own.

Now you say because you didn't put it to a vote and people took you at your word you will close the site and it is the communities fault for not over-riding your unilateral dcision not to allow the suggestions to be voted on and doing what you said to do (make a newsletter or do some AD HOC development).

[rdivilbiss]

I'm frankly fine with your decisions, even if they do seem to be inconsistant and bounce around. They are yours to make.

If you were serious about the community democracy thing, you would have tabled the discussion pending GC rather than just shutting it down.

If you were serious about shutting the topic dow (and I have no argument against your right to do so), you should have also not given your blessing to the actions which you now use as the reason for terminating the site.

[Esopo]

On that note, and trying to refrain from beating on a dead horse, there was no need for a skin contest. All you needed to get my involvement was a PM. All you really needed to get people involved was the yellow button "Guys! we need a new skin". That is all I am reading. I have no interest in winning no skin contest, I just want to give the site a new skin, like when I worked on the buttons. I don't remember us having a democratic vote on the new buttons nor a contest. All I remember is someone saying "Hey, Esopo, would you like to give the buttons a go?", to which I replied "Sure!", then I came back with buttons and you uploaded them. I don't remeber polls or contests... maybe that was the day our democracy died.

Seriously, that is partially why we want a newsletter. The newsletter could have said "BTW, Guys! we need a new skin", so that all interested in providing one would be informed (such as me). No need for contests amongst ourselves. This can't be achieved with RSS, there is no "announcements" feed.

And by that same token I don't remember having a vote on the new skin. I just remember logging in one day and seeing the yellow button. So what's up with that?

And finally, while discussing democracy, if the newsletter had been put to a vote it would have passed easily (as evident by this thread's response). And I don't remember anybody passing a vote on closing the forum either.

It is not about the system but the community. If this is not a business then it is a community. Communities have politics and religions that fit their ideas and when those ideas change so do their politics and religions. So in my mind it makes no sense to look at this site in the form of a failed Democracy Type B kinda' thing (all democracies are failures at one point or another), it is about the great group of people keeping this thing together and pulling it forward.

[nicholassolutions]

Fine points, Esopo.

This can't be achieved with RSS, there is no "announcements" feed.

Actually, with the mailing list manager I installed, we will: every news letter is automagically turned into rss/atom feeds, should anyone want to get the content that way. And there is an archive as well.

OK, now I really AM taking a break :wink:

[COBOLdinosaur]

I am going to try an reply in detail a little later.  Right now I am not feeling real great but I do need to post something.  Another attempt to try and communicate what is wrong with the forum and why it is will sink the site.

I'm not quite sure how you have managed to generate so much traffic to the site, but from someone who doesn't have a clue, you get a tremendous

You generate traffic by giving the Google spiders what they want and following Googles rules.
Rule 1 --  Quality links add to page rank and natural links beat crap links on dog pages.
Rule 2 --  Quality content beats crap, accessibility beats special effects (as Duz puts it "spiders are blind")
Rule 3 --  New beats old. Hot key words beat everything except better quality.

That's rules.  The unwritten rule is don't around trying to fool the spiders or create artificail rankings

ERT has followed the rules.  I spent a lot of time getting good links and continue to do that. I spent a lot of time working with our authors to get content and  presentation in good shape.  I keep adding and changing.  Everytime the spiders visit they see new stuff, updated stuff. Google has rewarded us the home page at PR3 sometimes gets a higher SERT than PR5 pages.  All those links also have generated a few hits, and hits have led to more links as long as you keep at it you continue to rise.  

Now let me bore you with some stats:
                uniques*         pages loaded         hits from Google
            
Sep                110             796                     0
Oct                380             7038                    0
Nov                385             5881                    0
Dec                447             3809                    14
Jan               1299             12702                   102
Feb               1935             11735                   674
Mar               4239             15914                   1538
Apr(MTD)          5709             16415                   2672
* unique visitors are over stated because the count uses ip is not reliable

Now look at how the come into the site for the month of Apr so far:
Entry pages     Home page          1558
                forum index        1458
                Matt's HTTPheader   532
            
Look at the number 3 page. A new piece of content that standing on its own, newly indexed is PR0. It is not going to show up in the SERPs, yet almost all the hits are from Google.  The reason is that it has a link on the home page which is  a quality PR3, just re-indexed because it has changed.  The net effect is the tutorial gets an effect though not official PR2.  That combined with the fact that it contains a large number of currently hot key words. So up it pops top 10 on a regular basis.  When it is replace by another feature article it will retain some of it weight and contribute to the weight of other pages on teh site that might need just a tiny nudge to make top 10. Of course on top of that it also gets hits from the link on the home page.  In total that tutorial has help around 700-750 people so far this month, and it will now continue to help month after month.  Not one or two hits a month from a link in a forum, but hundreds of hits off search engines with no additional effort.  The work was all done getting it there by the author and to a much lesser extent by the site.

That is Mentoring.  That is how you reach people who need help.  I have over a thousand links on EE to my various pieces. On overage over the last 2 years they combined to give me 10-15 hits a month.  On the ERT pages they get 300 a month for the last 3 months. No QandA format gives a Mentor that kind of reach.  

One bad new stat.  The number one exit page: forum index 1688.  Based on random tracking 90% of outside visitors leave the site after viewing the forum index.  They don't even look at the forums.  The ones who look at the forums opt for RSS feeds of them. It is not just that the forum is not getting action.  The forum is a black hole.  Vistors fron the content side don't turn to the content side; they leave the site. That is not from lack of activity (there are over 6000 comments). That is not from poor content (they are not even looking at it).  A few notifs to put one or two more Mentors on the site is not going to fix anything.  Minor cosmetics are not going to change anything.  

As long as it is just a forum it does detracts from the learning center we have develop through content.  It has to be more than a forum, it has to look like an integrated part of the site, it has to function like a part of the learning center, it has to be the place where users seek out the Mentors to learn more, not a forum where they can get a quick answer they are to lazy to look up themselves.  But, as long as Mentors want to feel and functionality of a forum, that is all it can ever be.  If we can only be comfortable with familar old EE, then we can never rise above a forum. If all we can do is look at topic or even forum categories and look for the right pidgeon hole, then we have just a forum and the users who come to the site have no classroom, lab or lecture hall where they can seek our council; there will only be a forum with a few experts talking to each other.

The forum has to go.  I don't know how to build what we need without starting from a forum, but if I want the content to survive, I have to try for a few months anyway to try and find some way to build a dialog center to go with the learning center.  I don't want to have to do it, but I am not going to lose the content side because the forum fails.  The content side may not be able to stand on its own and may be lost anyway, but at least it has a fighting chance. I don't have any way out of this.  Every time changes to the forum are discuss it is in the context of how to make it more comfortable instead of how we make it what it needs to be.  I just the same as everyone else.  I think about it in terms the best features for a forum instead of looking at what can be built from basic forum architecture.

The content side is helping hundreds of users, will help thousands and has the potential to reach tens of thousands, but not if it is dragged down by a dysfunction supplement and support component.

While I'm at it I appologize for some of my agressive comments and ask your understanding if I seem angry. I am in a bit of pain and on medication from my accident and I am not at my best.

Cd&