Watch Topic Area Suggestion...

[Huntress]

Listening.....

[Jasper]

Case in point.  I got an email earlier that someone had posted in this topic.  I clicked on the link read the 3 posts.  Never got another email.  I kinda thought this was something that would have the people posting, so I just checked and looky looky, there a few posts that I didn't get an email for.

And I think we all see how everyone came to look after getting the email from Rod.  It works.

[rdivilbiss]

Case in point.  I got an email earlier that someone had posted in this topic.  I clicked on the link read the 3 posts.  Never got another email.  I kinda thought this was something that would have the people posting, so I just checked and looky looky, there a few posts that I didn't get an email for.

I didn't realize until I made the original post, that you DO NOT GET NOTIFS unless you respond to one. Like you, I have been perplexed and alarmed to not get notifs....stumble on a topic and discover a half dozen new posts.

Apparently, at some point one notif was sent and by not dropping everything I'm doing, or watching the computer 24/7, I get unsubed for failing to respond.

Very strange. I guess I can see how the idea behind that might have sprung, but on a site where we need to have participation for survival, every legal means to communicate should be taken. Add an option for the user's to unsub from a topic if it is too busy, but otherwise let them know the forum is alive.

I can not fathom some poor fellow asking for help, and because he missed one notif he is unsubed from his question.

He could be at work and not have access to his home e-mail, he could get a notif trapped by a SPAM filter or just plain miss one. That's it! He's unsubed and thinks nobody is helping him.

And I think we all see how everyone came to look after getting the email from Rod.  It works.

Well everybody did NOT come. Maybe due to their time zone, they aren't online today or I made them angry (hope not.) Maybe they looked and did not post. (Two people did not and e-mailed me instead.) Positive reaction, but they did not feel their opinion mattered.

The last line is a problem I did not expect! :oops: Shame on us!

Problems are fixable, and we have many, many positive things to be happy about. Especially SEO and security!!! Kudos to everyone who worked so hard on those things.

I'm sure we can make communication better as well and you'll note I didn't just complain...I have suggestions.

I am also willing to help, including with code or offering up some additional SMTP engines as backups/auxilaries or for load balancing.

[Huntress]

Well dear, if nothing else, you got 4 new members to sign up.  But unfortunately this topic only allows the mod/admin group to post to it.  Site Operations isn't for everyone at this point.  If Roy thinks we should open it to all members for posting then I'll be happy to make the necessary changes.

[rdivilbiss]

Well dear, if nothing else, you got 4 new members to sign up.  But unfortunately this topic only allows the mod/admin group to post to it.  Site Operations isn't for everyone at this point.  If Roy thinks we should open it to all members for posting then I'll be happy to make the necessary changes.

Definately leave it up to Roy, but it might be a good to move this to the Soap Box. I think it may answer many questions for some who want to see the success of this site as much as we do.

[COBOLdinosaur]

I have no problem with moving it to the soapbox.  I would think that members who got emailed for a thread that they cannot post to are not real happy.  To add to the unhappiness I suspect my response here may not get a lot of cheers either.

My last post was back in January.

Since that time RSS feeds have been added with a link on the most heavily visited page on the site.  Since the link was added the RSS option page has moved into the top 10 in traffic.  That page(RSS options) gives the user the ability to just grab a feed, putting the link into their aggregator, or putting the link on their page. It contains both the indivdual forum categories and ALL forums.  The user has all the auto refresh options; NOT PUSHED... but when they want it at the click of the mouse.  There is a fully customizable version that will be added as soon as I get it properly secured.  The final step will deliver not a raw xml dataset, but a custom presentation from the RSS feed using a user defined stylesheet.

Is that a replacement for email notifs? No. It is a supplement. It is more flexible, reliable, customizable, efficient, and cost effective; as a modern solution should be, but it will never be a replacement for email notifs; as long as users want them.  However it does reduce the kinds of things that a forum should be trying to do with email.  Most of the issues raised can be addressed with passive RSS.  There is no need to push anything.  I don't see much more than a few minor tweaks required to email.  Considering that most suggestions are available with the RSS feeds or will soon be available, it does not make a lot of sense to use resources on email enhancements that are being made obsolete.

1. Be it daily or weekly, a site summary needs to be mailed to customers.

Why settle for daily, when you can have an RSS feed right up to the minute without having to dig through a spam-invested jungle to find it?  If a user absolutely has to have an email, we can generate that from the same feed; but using more modern code than we have with PHPBB.

2. Mentors, Site Builders and Editors need to be subscribed automatically to certain TAs and get a minimum of a daily summary of those posts E-Mailed to them. For example Site Operation, Bugs and maybe even the Soap Box.

I am fine with whatever the community wants to do. The work effort required to do what the community wants will determine when it gets done.  Unless it is very simple it is going to end up rolled into the forum re-write.

3. Any member eligible to vote should be notified by e-mail of any new poll.

In principle, I agree with that.  For the current small forum we have it could be done manually, but would need programming to automate it.  The automation would have to be slowed down and partitioned so it did not look like we were sending out spam, but it can be done. However there is a certain amount of bounce back and unless you remove the defunct email addresses it start to waste a lot of bandwidth.  So that is more programming and possibly DB changes.  There is not reason that poll notifications cannot be included in the RSS feeds. As for finding a new host if this one is too tight on anti-spamming; I totally disagree tight limits on anti-spamming are good in a host. It keeps your IP off of blacklists.  Did you know that most of the Comcast IPs are on blacklists because they ignore complaints about spamming form their IPs.  Did you know that Yahoo IPs are the number one source of port scanning in North America; or that most many Eastern European and Indian IPs are blacklisted becaue they are open proxies being used for phishing.  If you are hosted on an IP that gets blacklisted you cannot get yourself off the blacklist.  The host has to do it for the IP and sometimes for a whole netblock by properly securing it.  

A host that does not have strict controls on spamming probably is just as sloppy with the rest of their security.

4. Every notif should have at least a snippet of the new post attached so the customer can get an idea what was posted.

Requires programming.  RSS already gives detail.  Look at the feed on the tech news page.  It is the common format used by most feed sources. All we do on that page is style the content of the tags we are using.

5. EVERY notif, general e-mail, RSS summary page, etc. should be used to advertise additional information about site events and news. Hot topics, news worthy items, site statistics...anything that will generate interest in visiting the site should be summarized in a side bar or at the end of the message.

A bunch of programming changes and digging through some messy code to do it for email.  A relatively simple extension of the RSS feeds.

6. ... no more notifications will be sent until you visit the topic. ...

Is the default behaviour of most of the boards I have seen using phpbb, Invision, and Vbulletin. Most cusotm board are the same way. EE is the exception not the norm, because it reverts back to the old style news group style of notification.  I have heard far more complaints about the email overkill of every comment generating an email; then I have ever heard of complaints about only one notif.  Either way there are going to be complaints.  It can be made an option;  with programming changes and db changes.

7. There needs to be a page or area to manage notifications (possibly in the user profile, or at least linked to that).

Programming and database changes.  Most user do not modify the defaults in the sections of the user CP they already have.

8. Further enhancements to encourage registration and participation should be actively solicited.

Mom and Apple Pie.


So what makes me think that RSS has so much value?

Let's see.  Have an RSS page that is nothing but feeds (tech_news). It's in the top 10 in traffic for the site.  We now have a page feed for our own forum.  It's in the top 10 too.  Last week I was playing with a Firefox extension, that calculates and displays the Google PR based on the Way Google calculates backlink values.  I tried it on our home page.  Sure enough it showed the PR3 of the home page and PR2, 1 and 0 for the other pages except for one page.  RSS_options... our feed page showed as PR4. Now it does not actually have a Google PR yet; not until the next dance.  The PR is just the calculated value.  How can it be?  Well the PR is heavily weighted by backlinks, and every user who has put our RSS feed on their site, has given us a link.  It helps me explain why when I enter expertsrt as a search argument it tells me there are over 12,000 hits.

You want to promote traffic to the forum.  Every entry in every RSS feed contains a link to the topic, and a link to the profile of the member making the comment.  Our topics are getting higher rankings in the SERPs because there are links to those topics in every RSS feed from ERT. Some of the of feeds are being used in aggregators, but some are also being used on pages.

So we can do a bunch of programming to extend and enhance yesterday's technology for a small group of users, or we can use the programming resources to continue moving ahead on re-writing the forum; and tweaking and perhaps extending the modern technology that seems to be getting used by a larger group, and that will also satisfy most of the needs of the smaller group, if they use it.  

So you tell me what the priorities should be.  Re-writing the forum; enhancing the emails; extending RSS; addressing security issues; improving the user interface and navigation; getting Mentor subdomains up and going; re-skinning the content side; moving the content side pages to dynamic generation from the database instead of static; election apps; environment for the Governing Council to work in; upgrade of phpbb from 2.0.19 to 2.0.20; putting new content on the site every week; increasing the page rankings.

Just put them in order the way you think they should go... there is not enough resources to do everything at once; order the priorities.

Ordering format 1: Best for increasing traffic.
Ordering format 2: Best from a technical view.
Ordering format 3: Best use of available resources.
Ordering format 4: Address immediate needs first.
Ordering format 5: What will be best for ERT long-term.

Pick one or more objectives and order the priorites... please allow some slack so that hot button items can be addressed immediately over the priorities.

I know there are problems.  I know there are things that folks would like to see changed; but right now I set the priorities and I don't see email as important enough to put ahead of other things.  Maybe the GC will have different ordering for th epriorities and maybe the email problem will bubble to the top; or at least near enough to do something.  Right now it is very close to the bottom of the list a few paragraphs back.

If someone wants to just do some programming to make changes that is fine. We have done some of that.  As long as the PHP team is willing to support the effort and tells me that there are no security issues; I have no problem with AD HOC development.  However my efforts to improve the site are based on what I think I need to be doing for best resource utilization and long term stability.  

I follow theese kinds of threads. I comment in them, and sometimes I am convinced to modify my priorities.  In this case I am not convinced that diverting effort to enhancement of email is a good idea.
================
enhancing the emails;   upgrade of phpbb from 2.0.19 to 2.0.20;
==============
Right now here is the way I order it:

• addressing security issues;
• putting new content on the site every week;
• election apps;
• Re-writing the forum;
• getting Mentor subdomains up and going;
• re-skinning the content side;
• extending RSS;
• increasing page rankings;
• improving the user interface and navigation;
• environment for the Governing Council to work in;
• moving the content side pages to dynamic generation from the database instead of static;
• enhancing the emails;
• upgrade of phpbb from 2.0.19 to 2.0.20;

BTW, Unsolicited or unwanted email from forums and other sites is the number one reason why users don't subscribe to sites that require email addresses or use temporary email address that are gone in a day or two.  The notifs are not spambut 5 emails for 5 comments may be unwanted.  Just emailing them without a request is technically spam; and afar as "well it works" is exactly the same thing you heare form every spammer trying to convince a legitimate business that they should send out 10 million notices of their bargains.  The only difference is in the numbers; the technique and justification are identical.

Don't do it again! I will shut this site down before I will resort to spamming the members; or anyone else.
 
Roy

[sajuks]

I'm also here because of the unsolicited email, it works. I would have surely missed this post/thread without it.

add one more plus for the unsolicted email.IMHO this is a good idea,and maybe with an option for those who want to opt out it, its effective and reasonable.

[nicholassolutions]

I don't have time at the moment to make a detailed comment, but regarding "spamming":

I am signed up to receive news letters from many places. For example, I am on a list recieve Apache security alerts. I *could* check apache.org every day, but instead I've asked them to get in touch with me, because that's easier for me. There's no reason why we cannot set up the same type of opt-in scheme on ERT. I don't think anyone is suggesting that we should send out messages that say "vote, or I'm gonna keep mailing you until you cant take it anymore, and by the way, try my v1AgR4!", but rather, "Hi there, I'm just writing to remind you about X, as you asked me to when you signed up on the site." To me, that does not count as SPAM. In my old job, my boss told me to bug him about certain things, because he was busy and would forget if I didn't make myself a PITA. At first, I felt bad nagging him about things and adding to his list of things to do. But then I realized that he needed them done just as much as I did -- I actually was doing him a favor by taking the responsibility of reminding him, so all he had to do was the deed and not the remembering too. Several people in this thread are asking for the same type of favor.

That said, Roy's right that it will take resources, and some of those resources might be better directed at present. Nevertheless, writing a PHPMailer-based news-letter script for Sandi (or someone else) to send out annoucements would be relatively simple, especially with our current membership levels, and might get people more involved with the site. If I were in charge, I would notify everyone of the new feature in a one-time mailing, telling them they need to explicitly sign up if they're interested. I suspect there would be a lot of takers.

[rdivilbiss]

I have much more to say in a more measured response, but it is very clear there is a concensus that RSS is not a good answer to the problem.

So call me a friggen idiot, but I can't see a way for RSS to do what is needed.  One size does not fit all, and clearly is not serving the needs of many, (nor would I argue - serving the needs for the site.)

All the claims in the world about security, good ISP's versus bad, hacking attacks, etc. are just smoke and mirrors.

The fact is active communications via e-mail, in a manner not considered SPAM by the vast majority of their customers, is used by every successful large site and used to great advantage.

Clearly RSS isn't going to cut it no matter how it is sliced and diced.

[nicholassolutions]

Clearly RSS isn't going to cut it no matter how it is sliced and diced.

We need both (I'm not saying you disagree with that necessarily). Every argument Roy makes for why it's better is more or less irrefutable if you have a decent email client like Thunderbird. What it doesn't account for is the stubborn, set-in-their-ways among us (sometimes people call them dinosaurs  :wink:), who refuse to do things a better way just because they like the way they've always done it until now. [/code]

[COBOLdinosaur]

On the issue of spamming you are comparing apples and oranges.  From Apache.org you are getting offical notifications.  You are  not getting unsolicited email from another member because you posted your email to accept email from a site you trusted not to spam you.

If it alright for one member to to use the memberlist to send out "invitations" to a thread they want action on then that makes it all right for any member to use the same facility for every thread and spam members who have no interest in the topic.

When we started this site one of the first things we dealt with was hiding email addresses.  I have installed mods to detect and prvent flooding the forums with spam posts.  I enabled captcha even though I don't like it to make it difficult to get on the site, and I have shut down and block spammers who post referral links.

I don't care whether anyone likes the policy or not.  THE MEMBERS OF THIS SITE ARE NOT GOING TO BE SUBJECTED TO SPAMMING as a result of weak or ineffective policy.  If necessary I will completely disable the access to member email if members cannot be trusted to respect the rights of other members, and respect the policy of the site.

The only mass mailings permitted are official mailings from admin; or authorized by admin.

The emails address posted by members are there to make contact on matters arising from topics or other content, and to request their assistance on topics in their area of expertise.  Them may be used with mutual consent for other things; but they are not there to be spam magnets for either external or internal spamming.

Cd&

[nicholassolutions]

I'm not comparing apples and oranges -- you're missing the point. You'll get no disagreement from me that unsolicited emailing of members is unacceptable. Maybe what Rod did wasn't acceptable. To be fair, he did it through his own site, and not through ERT's database. Suggest anyone who is offended forward him all their spam for the day.

What I'm suggesting is an __OPT-IN__ news letter that is _excactly_ equivalent to what I get from the Apache Group, among other organizations. There are people asking for functionality, and you are using specious arguments to justify refusing to implement it.

[Esopo]

Here is my personal take (not necessarily a recommendation):

I don't like RSS. AFAIK RSS needs to be pinged. I am looking for exactly the opposite behavior, I want the site pinging me.

I try to keep up with the site but it is a very stone-aged task involving logging on often and browsing back and forth for new threads and posts.

I would personally appreciate some sumary system that I could trsut would keep me informed about the important stuff that is going on site-wide. So far I know these devices as periodical newsletters that usually arrive through my email.

Even if I wasn't so hung up on not using RSS (which I am), I tried the ERT feeds and they do not offer the type of customization that I want. I'd take the newsletter any day of the week and twice on Sundays.

[Huntress]

Topic moved to Soapbox...

[VGR]

I don't like RSS. AFAIK RSS needs to be pinged. I am looking for exactly the opposite behavior, I want the site pinging me.
.

10000% agree. It's the "push" against the "pull" idea.

Automating a (weekly?monthly?) site summary to all members is a good idea AFAIK and it didn't took me long to do it.

Email notifications on opted-in, subscribed, topics even when you didn't write a comment in each of them is also a very good idea. Think of all "looky-looky" (watching) members waiting for the occasion to participate...

RSS is fine for affiliate sites, portals, and people wanting to read lots of data every day. Not for me.