Layout suggestion

[Esopo]

CORRECTION

I think I misread that (I'm very tired - long holiday). Please disregard my comment if I did:

>>...and maybe people who don't like it will take time out from debating academic correctness long enough toinfluence the development of the longer term design so it goes in a direction they are more comfortable with.<<
Or maybe you are indirectly implying that I want to tilt the path of the design to better fit my personal taste wich would of course be tremendously insulting and rather stupid considering I am volunteering my time to the risk of a constant ill health (given that most of my interactions are negatively-toned debates) - which should be obvious by now.

[COBOLdinosaur]

Vision and mission:

How about this, especially the last paragraph you seemed to like that when it was posted.

http://www.expertsrt.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=670&highlight=#801

You are right you misread that one part.  What I am saying is that if you think changes are necessary it is easier to steer from the bridge, then it is on the dock watching the ship sail away.  It is also easier to see  where the ship is going, and convince the Captain that he should go around the iceberg instead of through it, if you are part of the bridge crew.

All of us make decision and judgements on how we think a piece of work should be done based on our personal experiences.  There is nothing insulting about suggesting that we move things where we think they should go based on that personal experience.

This thread has been hijacked to continue a debate we have been having about six weeks now. In that time there have been significandt changes in the forum in functionality, look, and usability.  The content side is having content added daily, we have a logo, we have the second generation of favicon.  We have upgrade the forum software to a more secure version, implemented RSS, charted a course for an object oriented PHP5 based second version, and opened a preview version of the site for limited viewing.

If you see some things you don't like maybe you could have made a difference; maybe you still can, but whatever goes up next week is going to go up, so if you have a better way of doing things; yu may find it is more effective to do things instead of talk about them.  If doing them means sometimeyou get rejected well welcome to the cruel world.  I get criticism everyday The only way to avoid it is hold myself out of the game, but I would rather play even when the wrong play gets called and quarterback gets sacked.

I was going to post a long response about how inconsistent you are in applying your rules; in that you criticize the same things on ERT that you think are alright on Yahoo, and Google.  So I will just leave it with maybe we should just replace the ERT logo with the Yahoo or Google logo and that will suddenly make the page okay. I'm not going to keep going back and forth with the same arguments we have been bouncing around on forever. There is a point at which debate becomes unproductive, and I think we are there.  So why don't we resume it six months after the site is live when you can either say "I told you so", or "nice job" to all who helped put it together.

[nicholassolutions]

RQ,  can you please say it again? I'm not sure anyone else heard you....

[Esopo]

>>...back and forth with the same arguments we have been bouncing around on forever.<<
Yes, I agree we are going nowhere. Actually I already knew that when I half-way hijacked this thread. So, here is my end’s peace:

There is plenty I want to say but I don’t want to bore people anymore than I already have, so I’ll keep it short.

Cd& an apology is in order from my stance. In this thread I have been purposely aggressive towards you. I thought that maybe if I were to use bold and unapologetic remarks, as is your style, I may be able to communicate with you better. I think you and I have a serious communication problem. It seemed to have worked a little bit, but not enough to make a difference. And kudos to you for not taking my aggression personal although at some points it was (I knew you would take it gracefully).

It makes me very uncomfortable to go around calling people “Nazis”; I hope I don’t have to engage in this little experiment again in any near future.

>>If you see some things you don't like maybe you could have made a difference; maybe you still can…<<
Well, this is me trying, and after this post this is going to be me not trying so much anymore. But I’ll take your advice and move it to a more practical stance. Maybe I won’t get the core of what I want implemented, maybe I am even wrong. But I can take it one suggestion at a time and see where it leads.

Maybe I don’t agree with a lot of the things being done here, but there is a hell of a lot of things I don’t agree with in this life that work just fine without my approval. I’m sure that this site is going to succeed even if some things are not fully optimized as long as there are good people making an honest and firm effort.

So, where to next? Point me to the proposals area.

[Huntress]

http://www.expertsrt.com/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=15

I also want to extend an invitation for you to join the Graphics/Layout team if you would like.  It's my group but ultimately Roy has the last say in all matters, just so you know.

[Esopo]

I also want to extend an invitation for you to join the Graphics/Layout team if you would like.  It's my group but ultimately Roy has the last say in all matters, just so you know.

I thought you would never ask  :wink:

[Huntress]

I thought you would never ask

Done!

[Anonymous]

So again the academically correct solution was not what users wanted.

The use of "again" would imply you already made a valid point which you haven't. And about your "users know and they have already spoken" I do not mean to be disrespectful in any way, but when it comes to technical matters most people just don't know what they want. If I had produced exactly what I had been asked for on software and website designs, I would have had to work twice everytime. The job of the designer is to listen to the user, understand what they really want and show them how much better their idea looks when improved - that's why we are supposed to be the "pros".

As a software developer I can honestly say I have probably NEVER given the customer what they asked for, always (or extremely close to) what they wanted.

Am I arrogant if I say I "know" what the customer wants more than they do? YES!!! OH CERTAINLY YES!!!!! I am arrogant because in my nearly 17 years as a software developer, I've been asked to supply any number of half-arsed, half-baked, one-liners only to be told that is not we wanted, even though we said we did.

I think it is time for the software developers to start developing software (that's me!), for the graphic designers to start constructing those oh-so-cool graphics which would take me weeks to do with Paint Shop Pro and trying to understand layers and masks and for the layout artists to draw on their expertise and tell us what WORKS for them and the customers that they have worked with.

And for the project manager to bloody well manage the project!!!!

Since when has a manager ever had a clue about all the aspects of the project? In my experience, never. Instead he places trust (his job! maybe his money if he is the employer) in the hands, hearts and minds of those he managers or employs. If you believe Spiderman's mantra of "with great power comes great responsibility", then I am sure you will all hold hands and chant with my "with trust comes excellence"!

If he is skilled in a particular area, then a good manager can be a god-send (Hmm. I don't believe in god, satan, santa claus, the tooth fairy or happily-ever-after), a foruitous occurrence then.

But first and foremost he has to manage. If he is forever poking and "suggesting" then the workers will either leave or simply do EXACTLY (and that is actually pretty hard to do sometimes) what they are told and the consequences can be extreme.

Especially when you have the phone recording and email logs to support you when the shit hits the fan!!!!!

And I am NOT sexist. I've just never had a female manager. I've only ever had 1 other job, and my managers have all been male.

[Huntress]

And I am NOT sexist. I've just never had a female manager. I've only ever had 1 other job, and my managers have all been male.

I resemble that remark!  And I was a pretty good manager in my day.

[COBOLdinosaur]

Cd& an apology is in order from my stance. In this thread I have been purposely aggressive towards you.

There is no appology necessary to me.  I expect heated debate will sometimes get aggressive.  If the comments are addressing the topic, then a little rough handling is not out of order.  I am the last one to be able to criticize, strong presentation of a position.

Sometimes there is a small cross-over to personal attack, and if someone indicates that I am going that route, I try to back that part off.  There is a fine line between demostrating an idea is stupid and indicating the person presenting it is stupid; and it is sometimes hard to discredit and argument; without apprearing to be attack the veracity of the other person.  If both are adults, then the minor infractions are not going to cause a war; as long as there is overall respect for each other. A little bit of elbowing in the heat of battle is not an issue. As long as everyone can sit down and have a beer together at the end of the day; there is no problem.