What if there was no javascript

[thepreacher]

Hi folks, i have  been thinking about JavaScript lately and the fact than its implemented differently on different browsers. Can i at all cut out JavaScript and get the same responsiveness with other standard tools XML, XSL etc.

Can i do stuff that Ajax does now some other way?

Cheers all.

[rdivilbiss]

You can do many things without JavaScript, but you will then require round trips to the server for many things, esp. AJAX like functions.

It is always good to design a site so it functions without JavaScript, then add non-dependent JavaScript where it can enhance the user's experience, should they choose to allow JavaScript to run on their browser.

[VGR]

you can do what AJAX (http request object) does by using hidden iframes inlined in your DHTML, to issue the same queries towards the web server. they can even contain a refresh settings, quite handy.

personally I never use javascript, except for what it's good at : detecting window size, user settings... and of course simple input validations. No javascript should be necessary to your site. The webserver, even round-tripped all the time, is there to ensure your site's safety by various mechanism. In fact, it should resist user's attempt to embed extra javascript in pages to access the pages, POST normally GETted data, bypass controls or login and such.

[GrandSchtroumpf]

> you can do what AJAX (http request object) does by using hidden iframes inlined in your DHTML
Funny, I'm currently working on a project that uses this technique... but I post to a visible iframe.  It works very well.  I can see the post's feedback, including debugging, in the iframe.  I moved from standard <posting to the same page> to this because having to reload the page every time something needed to be saved or updated was a real pain...

[VGR]

yes. An even better technique (simplier) is to use a frameset with one of the frames at zero height (for instance). It's handy to have it monitor the user's actions and perform tasks on its own... invisibly.

[CrYpTiC_MauleR]

NoScript supports blocking frames, so even if you ditch JavaScript to make it accessible for users who have it disabled and use frames instead, it may still cause a problem for NoScript users. Not to mention there are many malware attacks and browser exploits that use frames. One reason why NoScript now allows blocking of them, who knows where the future of frames lies if it gets the limelight of being as dangerous as JavaScript when it comes to online safety. I for one hope for the day when frames and JS are dropped, but thats just my opinion =oP

[VGR]

not me.

don't throw the baby with the bath. It's not because some feature may be abused by few people that it isn't usefull for the bast majority.

a better idea is to make them more secure.

Personally with FX (firefox for non-intimates ;-) I have no problem whatsoever with JS, frames or popups (blocked unless I want them), cookies (idem), Flash (idem) with an extension, malwares (they're designed for abusing Internet Exploder), activeX or VBS (don't work)...

it seems to be enough. I don't see the purpose of "NoScript" extension. It's very paranoid.

[rdivilbiss]

I agree mostly with Cryptic re: security but also would not throw out the bathwater with the baby, as VGR states.

Also a FF user, I can open my browser easily to decide what content I wish to allow from a web site.

When I made my original post, I was thinking about what many call gracefully degrading code.  I want the site to function in a non-JavaScript enabled browser (whether blocked by the user or because of the browser design), i.e.  screen readers, and those browsers can not handle JavaScript at all.

After my site functions minimally well without JS and CSS, than I can add those as needed for more functionality, with an eye towards not breaking my original goal.

Security should also be considered, and I rarely achieve all my accessibility goals, but at least I give it some attention.

ADDENDUM

While VGR and Cryptic mention JS or JS assisted attacks directed at us, as the browsing public...we as the web developers have other JS, or JS assisted  vulnerabilities to consider, the most common being XSS.