Experts Round Table Network

If ERT is going to be a democracy; then the community must put the democratic structures in place. It is time to take the next step forward.  Talking about it is fine; but it will not be a reality without positive action.  The proposal to do that is: http://www.expertsrt.com/Council.html

We are not going to waste bandwidth here on the layout of that page or other petty crap. I don't care if you like the look of the page.  Only the content of it matters.  The proposal itself is simple and highlighted in red to make sure all can find it. The rest of that page is support info concerning how we will proceed if the proposal is accepted.  If you have a problem with the election mechanisms, then propose an ammendement.  Don't waste everyones time with posturing and looking for a maybe option if you do not have an ammendment to propose.  

There is no maybe option on this.  The question is simple do we take the first step to becoming a democracy; YES or NO.

An Interim Governing Council is absolutely essential to control and limit the owner of this site; ME. No matter how much I want community decision making; without controls, I will make arbitrary decision that may be in my interests, but not necessarily what is best for the community.  The community will not be able to guide policy if I or anyone else has absolute control without accountability, as is the case with owners and senior admins on other sites.

Right now, we are going to find out if ERT democracy is viable. If ERT members do not care enough to participate; that's okay.  The site can be run as a dictatorship like other help sites. Given the history of such sites it is possible with near absolute certainty to predict what that dictatorship will lead to.  In time ERT management/admins/and other functionaires will become greedy, arrogant, self-centered, and uncaring; just like other sites.

With this proposal every member has a single choice forced on them; with an option to accept two additional responsibilites by voting yes to the first:

• Vote for democracy or against it. There is no in-between option. IMO (not_voting == 'NO')
• Support and vote for the candidates of your choice who you think will serve the community interest well.
• Run for the Interim Governing Council and have a direct hand in deciding what ERT is going to be.  Even those who do not win election will have influence, by having presented their ideas and demonstratd their support for democracy.

There it is.  I have brought us to the edge of democracy. I can't do the next step alone. YOU have to step into democracy from the perimeter.  It has to be your choice. Democracy cannot be imposed.  Either you take control or by default I become the King of ERT.  I don't want to be King.  I just want to be a Mentor helping where I can.  Please take the burden from me.

Roy

"I have brought us to the edge of democracy" : LOL

I agree with your page's contents. I just think the site admin could be elected to an other position. It's not incompatible IMHO.

I don't understand what you are saying.  The site admin was never considered to be an elected position. I have legal and financial exposure and as long as that is the case the site admin who has the ultimate privelege on the servers will be me or someone who reports to me.  If at some point the community takes on responsibility for legal and financial liability, then  the choice of Site Admin will be up to the community.

Cd&

That looks good to me (as does the page design, in fact :wink:). I even know whom I'd like to nominate.

BTW, It might be worth emailing about this topic, or at least placing an announcement up top.

I am going to put an announcement up in the morning and then I will get the the vorerinfo page setup when we get ready to vote on this.  I'm already workign on code to manage the voting controls.  I can generate the random code just fine so I just have to set up an election table and populate it.  Then we will send out the codes.

The page for voting is simple.  you have t be logged in to vote, so you get authenticated and your one time code allows you to vote.  Balancing is just queries agains the vote database at the end.  

When I was on EAB over at TOS we propsed an elected board several times and it always got shot donw because it was to complex and difficult to secure.  It's not; they just did not want the community deciding who would be on the board, but even with getting to select them himself Austin could not get even one EAB member to support the unlimited points nonsense that turned it into a game; and breed the moron $10timmys that ran off people like Sean and Mike.

An elect Governing Council is the strangest safeguard we can put in place until we are ready to expand to full size.  We just need to have that base to build on.

All eligible voters except the Site Administrator and Election officials are eligible to run for the Interim Governing Council

Presumably the Site Admin will have the ability to break tied votes (and otherwise would be either out-numbered, or adding a 'useless' vote to decided issue)...so effectively he is part of  the Council...

just a quick opinion : I think the site could as wellr emain an "enlighted autocracy" run by an elite of 1 or 2 persons. It always works better this way. Don't forget that it has been proved that whenever you end up with three (3) persons or more to take decisions, the difficulty of reaching a compromise is geometrically higher. And the more the deciders are numerous, the more likely the compromise will be unsatisfactory to all deciders, and the more unsatisfied (annoying) people there will be at the end.

If running the site gives you too much trouble & work (which I understand), then perhaps rotating the responsibilities from week to week or month to month between a small set of cooptated peers is good enough.

I agree with a lot of that, at least inasmuch as it means the governing council should not get too large....that's something we'll have to figure out as we go forward.

Agreed.

Of course, we could adopt such a model, and do things by following the herd.  That is the way many sites are already managed.  There is nothing unique or special about them.  There are thousands of dead forums and help site scattered across the Internet.  There are also some that are marginally successful with that model.

We are looking to do something different, and you don't do that by following; you do it by leading.

DMOZ is successful because they took a unique approach to directory editing.  Google is successful because they have a unique indexing method.  Sourceforge is successful because of a unique method of collaboration.  Digg is successful because found a new way to analyze and comment information.  The list of innovative successes can go on for a long time.  

Yes you can be successful by doing what everyone else is doing; or you can break new ground and succeed or fail.  Many of the members of ERT are here because they don't like the way other help sites and forums are run.  Maybe a democratic model will not be any better; the only way to find out is to try it. If I wanted to play safe and just make money I would have just expanded my personal site, added some free stuff and loaded it up with ads like a million other commercial ventures on the 'net.

One thing is certain.  If we use the same old centralized control model we will end up the same way as sites that use it now; unresponsive to the members who build and contribute. We can succeed or fail either way.  The method of govenance will change the basic relationship between the community and the site owner.  If it succeeds then additional sites will adopt the model and change the way things are done.  If we fail then it will be time to find another model that brings about changes that benefit experts who volunteer their time helping others on the Internet.

Playing safe by doing what everyone else is doing has never had much appeal for me.

I understand, but wanting to e "all different" from other sites is perhaps not an obligation nor a necessary condition for success.

ERT is different enough to appear original and may very well succeed (I see it as succeeding already) even if it's run like the other sites. I see no contradiction.

VGR,

I see what you are saying and I don't necessarily disagree with it, but I feel an interim council of 4 people should do perfectly fine, especially right now since the people that will make the first council are bound to be some of the "founding fathers" who largely share the same views, or at least, the passionate will to make this thing work.

Further, I don't think that ERT is being different for the sake of being so, but because the goals we are pushing towards are very unique. I'm sure if something stops working at some points will be able to revise it. There is always the option of a site-admin revolt to reset the government  :wink:

Successful by what measure?

Financial?...  Obviously not.
Growth of membership?... I would argue no.
Attracting traffic?...   moderately yes
Production of quality content?... YES
Development of a community?... Mixed; the core group fully participating is quite small.
Serving the needs of the market we targeted?... only in a very small way.

Now let's look at the important one, are we successful in doing what we set out to do?  This site was founded on the idea that experts need a place where they could teach without being force to play in games for points.  A place where the people delivering the service would make the decison that effected them.

Have we been successful... We have the place; built by our own efforts.  There are no points or games. I make all the decisions.  Two out of three is not success, it is a C grade.  Being able to express your opinion and even having them listened to and perhaps acted on is not the same as having the power to make the decision.

There are a lot of boards where management tries to listen to the members and respond to them.  EE in its earlier days tried to do that.  On most boards the admins came up through the ranks, but at some point after being elevated, they quit being Experts and become part of the  site management team.  At EE we even went so far as to have an Experts Advisory Board... that failed twice... for the same reason; management did not have to listen to the Board, and the Board had no authority.

We wanted to turn the EAB into an elected body.  Management would have none of it.  It would have been a threat to the owners absolute power to do as he pleased with the site. An elected EAB could have legitimately claimed the represented the Community.

We are stuck at 2 out of 3 and the C grade unless the community through its elected representatives can make real decisions.  Having an elect does not demonstrate democracy; it is just a step along the path.  We will not be able to say the site is truly a democracy until the first time that the board makes a decision I disagree with and it gets implemented anyway, because they have jurisdiction.  At that point we can call ourselves a democracy.  

That would make it 3 out of 3 and an A grade.  I have always hated C grades and expected the chance to improve the solutions so they were worth an A.

Cd&

I agree with the proposal.

It's time to Rock-n-Roll. Let's get this party started.   :glasses7:

So where are we posting nominations?  Or should we just PM them?

I think we have been talking enough. Everybody will have an opinion and an argument against someone else's opinion.

It is time we implement what we have broadly agreed upon and move on.

I agree

joking :
if 3/3 is "A" (20/20) and 2/3 is supposedly "C", where is the "B" ? :D :D

2/3 is 66,67% so it's ***a lot*** better than a "C" grade which is - if I'm not too mistaken - the mediane = 10/20, or 50%

don't cheat on the numbers ;-)

And yes, when I said "I see it as succeeding", I meant :
- member registration at a good pace
- people happiness of being there
- participation relatively high
- responsiveness reasonably high

I ***never*** count "financial" arguments as measuring success, or else I would have to recognize Merdu$oft as successful :/

Financial success, as is registration rate BTW, is a consequence of the good product quality, market targetting etc

in that sense, I see ERT already as a reasonably good success, but apparently you want more out of it.

Doesn't matter. Already a success or not, we still have a long way to go. Hold elections, let's get a leadrship and let's move on.

It is better than arguing if we are doing good or not.  :wink:

la réflexion avant l'action ;-)

ça vaut mieux que l'action suivie de la réaction :D

(like acting against Saddam and then having to react to Iran's profiting from the [previsible] unbalance induced in the region, or like acting against Saddam-the-tyran and having to react to the [previsible] apparition of Chi'ite tyranny)

Thinking and argumenting before action doesn't cost you anything but some time, acting & regretting can cost you a lot more.

1) I don't think Iraq War was a mistake.
2) But yes people do c ommit mistakes.
3) People also die in car accidents.
4) People don't stop driving cars.

If we keep talking and do nothing, we aren't going to go very far.

AHA!...  read the the proposal my sweet darling(I'm not making a pass Muso).

We still have to vote on whether to have an election.  Then there will be a topic for nominations.



I agree.



I also agree with that.

The strength of a democratic system is that it forces debate and examination of issues that slow things down.  
The weakness of a democratic system is that it forces debate and examination of issues that slow things down.

You can debate for years and still make a mistake.  You can examine in every fine detail and still make a mistake.  You can delay something beyond the time when a decision is need and that might be a mistake; or might turn out to be good.

The people participating in this topic are active on the site.  Given the number of views there are others watching. Some of those lurking have been active; some want to be active, but have not yet seen a chance to contribute.  There are members who visit every day without posting; and who are actively supporting ERT externally; waiting for the topics where they can help in heat up. We are the debaters.  Those able to express our ideas and confident in our ability to do so. There are others who are not comfortable in this rolebut just as interested, and doing other things to support the community.  It would be nice to hear from all the members who support the community, but we are not going to hear from everyone in this topic.  Hopefully we will hear from them when we count votes, and we will hear from them by their actions of continuing support or leaving because we have not given them what was promised 7 months ago and as part of the regular promotion of ERT since.

Some of us have been on the site from day one back in September, and have always looked for ERT to become a democracy. I planned for a year with the idea of it being a democracy.  I believe the thinking has been done by many for some time.  I hope the debate on democracy and how we should implement it never ends.  It is now time to take the next step.  There will always be a chance of failure; no matter how long we wait.

When I want something on the other side of the highway, I know there is a chance of being run down by a manic motorist if I cross it.  I know the risk; and I am cautious.  I evaulate how much I want what is on the other side; and make a decision. So we can stand watching the traffic or cross the road.  

Cd&

Well duh!  Had to re-read it since I only skimmed it the first time.  I guess I'm just raring to go on this thing eh? {and don't worry, muso knows you're like a big brother to me!]

Cd&,

You keep putting down your so-far "king" status. Democracy is a sweet thing to talk about but not an easy accomplishment (and in my view not necessarily an allround positive thing either).

Anyway, you took on the roll of the decision maker because we needed one. We still do. The democracy thing can wait until the time is right for it. You say now is the time, I won't argue. But don't ridicule the much needed one-man-rule we've had so far.  (and you've done an overall pretty good job BTW  :thumbup: )

Esopo,

I'm not riduculing one man rule when it is called for, and getting almost anything kickstarted generally needs some kind of a dictatorial approach.  And even though I have the final word on things; Sandi has done a lot of the day to day management of the forum without a lot of recognition for it.  

I will agree that I have done a pretty good overall job.  Some things were not done as well as they could have been.  Some thing have not been done.  I would rather look at the positive side of it.  

When the new front page went up I remove the news feeds form it.  They are duplicated on the tech news page, but more important the feed were causing Google to list the page for search terms that related to the news story, and bring people to the site who were not look for us.  I expect that to cause the the hits on the front page to drop.  It hasn't. The content that is now on the home page and the way the page has been optimized make it the number one landing page on the site.  I thought it would drop our Google hits.  It hasn't as of today we already have more hits from Google the we did for the whole month of March.  

So I have done a good job getting us traffic.  I would like to take credit for all the referenceson the Internet to ERT, but I didn't do that.  When we went live in January the search term expertrt returned just a handful of pages.  When our page rank jumped up to PR3 in  February we were up to 800 references.  When I looked today Google says "1 to 10 of 12,800"  I have no idea where all those 12 thousand  references are.  They are not all links.  expertsrt is not a word, it is just us, so somehow Googles spiders have managed to find over 12,000 pages with our name on it.

We are not just nibbling at the edge.  The content both on the content side and in the forum is going head to head with big content rich sites and grabbing position on them.  One of the hits I looked at in detail today  was the simple search term: changecss javascript ...  We should not even be in the game with something that inspecific. So how did we git a hit. The user must have been going deep into the search pages.  NOPE! An ERT Javascript topic was number 2 in the millions returned. Behind a page from Quirksmode.  EE comes up 16th with a year old thread giving a good link to Alistapart, supplied by an expert who is now an active member of ERT. We are seeing that kind of thing a hundred times a day and soon we will see it a thousand times a day.

We are going to start growing very quickly, and if we don't nail down a democratic system now we are going to be too busy with other thing later, and it will keep getting put off.  If we are not ready now, then we are not going to be ready in 6 months or a year.  The Google crush buried EE because even though we could see the growth coming Austin was not prepared to do anyting to be ready. I don't want us to repeat that mistake.  We need to have our structure in place while we cna still do it easily.

The worst that can happen is we screw it up. So we will just step back and figure out a better way to do it, just like we have been trying to do with everything else.

Cd&

Cd&/Huntress:

Say when.
or you could break the Lock yourself.   :coffee2:

http://www.expertsrt.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=6751#6751

Whenever you are ready.  This has had over 200 views, and we can continue the discussion; but I think we are ready to do the vote.

:D

VOTE NOW, VOTE OFTEN

 :cheers:  :cheers:  :cheers:

personally, I prefer this slogan : "vote once, vote nice"

We better vote soon or else people here will start thinking that ERT is all talk and no vote.  :scratch:

do, if you haven't yet :D

Voting is open so let's get to it!   :wink:

Done.  :D